This is a RECOVERED DOCUMENT from June 2, 2008 McCain tells AIPAC that Obama would endanger Israel The AIPAC policy conference began today, and John McCain planned to waste little time sowing fear about his presumptive Democratic opponent for the presidency, Barack Obama. From NYT’s The Caucus: he charged that Mr. Obama’s calls for diplomacy with Iran were misguided and insufficient, and that his proposal to begin withdrawing United States troops from Iraq would lead to chaos in the region and endanger Israel. In remarks that Senator McCain planned to deliver in a cavernous room here at the Washington convention center, he dwelled on the threat that a nuclear-armed Iran would pose – and criticized the positions of Mr. Obama, his likely Democratic rival. “The Iranians have spent years working toward a nuclear program,’’ Mr. McCain was to say, according to excerpts from the speech provided by his campaign. “And the idea that they now seek nuclear weapons because we refuse to engage in presidential-level talks is a serious misreading of history,’’ he added, noting that previous overtures by the Clinton administration had failed. “Even so, we hear talk of a meeting with the Iranian leadership offered up as if it were some sudden inspiration, a bold new idea that somehow nobody has ever thought of before,’’ he said in the advance text of his speech, which was provided by his campaign. “Yet it’s hard to see what such a summit with President Ahmadinejad would actually gain, except an earful of anti-Semitic rants, and a worldwide audience for a man who denies one Holocaust and talks before frenzied crowds about starting another. Such a spectacle would harm Iranian moderates and dissidents, as the radicals and hardliners strengthen their position and suddenly acquire the appearance of respectability.” Updated: Footage above of McCain’s speech via Jerusalem Online Posted by Brad A. Greenberg in 57 Comments — Leave your comment Tags: barack obama, israel, john mccain, president '08 Share this post: del.icio.us Digg Facebook Google Bookmarks Reddit StumbleUpon Technorati YahooMyWeb COMMENTS We welcome your feedback. Privacy Policy Your information will not be shared or sold without your consent. Get all the details. Imagine...a man running for the highest office in a country that has signed the Non-Proliferation Treaty discussing a threat to a country that refuses to sign the Non-Proliferation Treaty as if our interests are the same (hint: they are not). We shed blood & liquidity for Israel - she never, ever returns the favor. Heck we even shed our blood at the HANDS of Israel ala the U.S.S. Liberty. We should be embracing the co-signers of the NPT, not those who refuse the treaty. What a messed up man and country...I say this as he panders to AIPAC and other Jewish groups that have been found to have spied on us. This is just too surreal to me. Comment by sharpinchitown on 6/02/08 at 3:22 pm McCain is a confounder. Obama will protect , Israelis from Israelis who want to maximize hatered. It is no fun living surrounded by revenge seeking people and relying on the USA to dole them out. A diamond cuts diamond===good begets good. Pacifiers win. Only idiots keep fighting. OBAMA 08. Comment by reeder on 6/02/08 at 3:39 pm of course john would say that - he has been an opportunist all along. i hope to one day never hear his name again. Comment by scobra on 6/02/08 at 3:56 pm When did Israel become part of the United States? The American government pledged allegiance to America, not Israel. Obama or any other candidate for that matter, does not owe Israel squat. Comment by nadoop on 6/02/08 at 4:15 pm “Songbird” McCain will do nothing but bring about the end of Israel as we all know it - don’t think of him as a friend...he will say what he thinks will appease his audience. Remember...he made propaganda videos for the Viet Cong to receive preferential medical treatment, while his fellow soldiers sat in pain, but divulged no information with which the United States could be harmed. I don’t begrudge Israel’s existence, but I do begrudge the actions taken against the indigenous population therein. Please understand that “never again” means that for EVERYONE. Comment by hANOVER fIST on 6/02/08 at 4:54 pm I cannot believe that an entity called the Jewish Journal would host the comments of anti Israel, anti-Zionist, antisemitic cockroaches like the posters above. McCain has provided the only moral clarity in this discussion and has fired a shot across the bow of the upcoming election. The democrats will be reduced to “homina-homina-homina” in the face of this statement of support for Israel. Obama would throw Israel under the bus faster than his white grandmother. Many, many Jews will die if Obama becomes President. And many, many Arabs will die if Obama becomes President. The USS Liberty? Are you kidding? This has been debunked many times. Either it was a mistake (based on the boat being in the wrong place at the wrong time, or a legitimate hit on a vessal coopted by the NSA to pass on Israeli troop movements to the Egyptians. Israel is as close to a US state as it is possible for another country to be. As McCain said, our shared values make it so. America was founded in the first place by people inspired by the freedom of the ancient Israelites from tyranny. And let hanover learn the true meaning of ‘indigenous’. Jews are indigenous to Palestine/Israel, not Arabs. Period. Learn some true history. Comment by Ben Plonie on 6/02/08 at 11:47 pm Ben Plonie: You are out of your freggin’ mind. Just because converted Jews from Europe claim they belong in the Middle East doesn’t make it so. Stop feeding into the propaganda. And as I’ve said before, America doesn’t owe Israael shyt. In fact, Israel owes ME as an American thousands of dollars since my government has been feeding the Israeli governmental crooks with my tax dollars since God know’s when. America has it’s own problems, and we elect government officials to govern AMERICA , NOT ISRAEL. Get your head of your azz, please, and stop with the fear mongering. BTW: The thugs from Eastern and Central Europe who brainwashed the Jewish mass with the false notion that they have the right to the Middle East are nothing but colonists who uses their faith to justify their evil deeds. Comment by nadoop on 6/02/08 at 11:55 pm i know very few americans who are anti-jew. but the internet is moving information faster that anyone can keep track of and a few people (in power) in Israel have some major blood on their hands. We wouldnt know of the depravity in the jewish world would it not be for certain jewish scholars who give us information. Ironic isnt it? You guys need to get acquainted with some truth instead of all this macho-posturing that we are constantly bombarded with. More and more americans are waking up and realizing that you are oppressing another nation and Americans do not like that. We are impressed by you in so many ways. We are similarly un-impressed. Israeli girls always complain to us American boys that their men are retarded because they have so much to prove. Should I go on. As far as i can tell America and Israel are in big trouble. Both of our nations leaders are pushing for war with Iran and that will be a bad thing for most of us. Comment by scobra on 6/03/08 at 1:48 am As discomforting as contrary opinions can be, they also are one of the benefits of this open forum. None of us are ever going to fully agree, and for that reason it is not appropriate to moderate the views of those that run counter mine or any other person, entity or nation. I can think of only two reasons off the top of my head for which I will delete comments: threats of violence and language unsuitable for the pages of The Jewish Journal. As long as everyone keeps their comments above reproach, I have no problem with people promoting politics and perspectives that are neither mainstream nor PC. Comment by Brad A. Greenberg on 6/03/08 at 1:54 am Don’t you think McCain has sufficiently demonstrated his obedience to his Israeli masters. I mean, this guy is just getting embarrassing about it now! Comment by DC Hilton on 6/03/08 at 2:03 am I am not anti Jewish or ‘anti-semetic’. I’m anti colonialism. I’m anti-imperialism. I’m anti-racism. I’m anti-propaganda. I’m anti-war. More importantly, I’m pro-truth. With that said, I’m tired of Israel playing victim at the expense of others. Comment by nadoop on 6/03/08 at 2:52 am Last thing...Israel has one of the most advanced militaries in the world, therefore if Israel needs to defend itself from the “terrorist”, it can. With the nuclear warheads and other sophisticated weaponry, I think Israel will have no problem “defending” itself from a bunch of army-less people. Americans need to focus on America, not welfare and other types of aid to Israel. Comment by nadoop on 6/03/08 at 2:57 am Nadoop yes anyone who is pro-truth will certainly harm the political designs of the nefarious contingents in both Israel and America. Both countries leaders have not shown any regard for truth, and truth is more powerful in the long run. God help us all. God bless Israel - America - and Palestine. Comment by scobra on 6/03/08 at 4:49 am Yes! God Bless Israel, America, AND PALESTINE! I notice people cannot show regards for Palestine without being labeled anti whatever. Ugh. Obama has been running on a ‘bring everybody together’ platform, where blacks and whites and whatever have embraced his message. HOWEVER, he can’t include Palestine and other Arab & Muslim people because certain people in the Jewish community and even some Americans will denouce him as ‘pro terrorists’ or pro whatever. Again, UGH. Comment by nadoop on 6/03/08 at 5:03 am Uh, hello Mr. McCain… helloooo… we’re here, remember us? the American citizens..... Mr. McCain.....Mr. McCain.............................................. And never forget that the son of Cain co-authored the Kennedy amnesty bill AND the Keating Five fiasco where one of George Bush Sr.’s spawn ripped off the savings and loan industry and WE THE TAXPAYERS had to pay for it. Mr. McCain took a nice sized bribe during that incident. He also is an addled old fart who cannot control his temper. Does anyone really want him near the red button? Comment by Kim on 6/03/08 at 4:57 pm I can think of another reason to moderate comments. Plain lies and hatred. Lies, spin, propaganda, ignorance, insults all fall within a category of subscription to evil. As GWB once said in a similar connection, God (as in The God Blog) is not neutral on these issues. I have been an observer and participant on the internet and WWW from the beginning, and have seen the hate mesasages and propaganda above spreading like sewage. The fact is, there was no Palestine, there is no Palestine, there never will be a Palestine, and there never should be a Palestine. On the other hand, there has been an Israel since God promised it to Abraham and it became established in the fullness of time. Dream on, irrelevant haters. The ancient promises and prophesies are being realized before our eyes. As for Mr. “anti colonialism… anti-imperialism… anti-racism… anti-propaganda… anti-war… pro-truth”, well me too. Welcome, fellow Zionist. Comment by Ben Plonie on 6/03/08 at 11:55 pm Ben...where do I begin? First...you’re quoting the Monkey King himself, George Walker Bush? He’d be inhaling chodah in alleyways for beer money, if the TRADING WITH THE ENEMY ACT were in place, back when his family was financing the Nazis in WW2. Brad - thank you for not exhibiting a knee-jerk reaction. I do not hate Jews, nor do I hate Israelis...but I DEPLORE the actions taken against the Palestinians, because of...PROPHECIES?!? Oh, dear… Like you, I have also been on the internet as an observer and a participant...but I am a SCIENTIST, my friend. I don’t believe in the Earth having been formed 6,000 years ago...and I sure as heck don’t take the word of a book purported to have been written by G*d...but is rife with contradictions. Palestine “never existed”? I understand that you may regard them as “cockroaches” and “crocodiles that eat any meat they are fed”, and other silly proclamations, but really...they are human beings, much like you. I am aware of the physiological studies performed on Jewish and Arab individuals that were torn out of medical journals, because they disprove racial propaganda. I have done my research...I just don’t spout off without having facts to bolster my statements. “I can think of another reason to moderate comments. Plain lies and hatred. Lies, spin, propaganda, ignorance, insults all fall within a category of subscription to evil.” - sounds to me that there is one finger pointing my way, but the other three are actually in the correct direction. Why would one be adverse to discussion...unless your facts are lacking? I appreciate the chance to air these views, and I applaud the Jewish Journal for enabling this discussion. Ben...I’m looking forward to your response. Comment by hANOVER fIST on 6/10/08 at 9:07 pm I did not refer to Arabs as cockroaches. I called those spreading lies and propaganda cockroaches with the first opening wedges, and then and you will observe the mask immediately slip when I correctly identified those efforts. I am glad you welcome my response, but having been through this before, I have not the slightest confidence that you will enage anything I say with integrity. Nor focus. I will be amazed if you respond to one thiong I say without changing the subject. I won’t even bother with posters as nincompoop, or whatever. And this is not a matter of conflicting opinions. It is truth vs. lies, right vs. wrong, good vs. evil. Here is a typical one - “I don’t begrudge Israel’s existence, but I do begrudge the actions taken against the indigenous population therein. Please understand that “never again” means that for EVERYONE. “ This is not an ideal forum for detailed discussion, but let’s get the basics done. Starting with you original three non-sequiteurs, It is an oxymoron for Israel to exist in place of a non-Jewish ‘indigenous’ population. Therefore your premise is false and your statement is impossible. And in that context, the fairly humane and careful ‘treatment’ of evil savage Arabs in Israel who tried to steal our place and kill and terrorize us becomes clarified. ‘Never again” refers to the response to the extermination of the Jews in Europe, for which the term ‘genocide’ was coined. In about four years, the global Jewish population dropped from 18 million to 12 million. That’s genocide. In contrast, the Arab populations under he government of the Jews has had its population and life expectancy zoom. That’s not genocide. Is Israel the gang that can’t shoot straight, if all they wanted was to kill Arabs? OK Mr. Junk SCIENTIST. What does that mean? That you are trained in fact-finding? You have a committment to objective truth? Obviously not. You are a scientist something less than that prophesies are definitive. I answered you. “And let hanover learn the true meaning of ‘indigenous’. Jews are indigenous to Palestine/Israel, not Arabs. Period. Learn some true history.” How can I make this clear… It’s not their place. They don’t belong there. They have no roots there. They neither arrived there nor resided there lawfully. In fact, these are precisely the charges that they and you level against Israeli Jews. That is no coincidence. Propaganda notwithstanding, NEITHER Arabs in general NOR those fraudulently called ‘Palestinians’ for the last few decades are indigienous to Palestine or Israel. You did your research? Where is it? Nothing unsubstantiated if you don’t mind. Don’t tell me what this king or that diplomat said in a speech. When asked about the absence of evidence for ‘Palestinian’ Arab life in any respect prior to 1969, the answer is that they unfortunately neglected to keep records of it, and every other traveler to the region simply didn’t notice the Palestinian society. Assuming you regard being indigenous as definitive, the Jews are the oldest living nation to have been resident under a law in history. In fact, the Jews have a clearer claim to Israel on that basis alone than any other people in any other land on Earth. Greater than the Germans to Germany, the Italians to Italy, the Greeks to Greece, the Chinese to China, the Indians to India, the Egyptians to Egypt. You guys are all mixed up. The Canaanites are gone, and they had only invaded Canaan three hundred years before Abraham. The Arabs showed up TWO thousand years after the establishment of the Israelite polity, and their foreign land-grabbing, village-detroying exploitative brutal colonial occupation cannot be honored certainly by us but neither by you. And they neither held the land long, nor established an Arab palestinian polity. But beyond that basis alone, the Jews have had a continuous presence in Israe for millennia, with the exiled Jews struggling back as possible over the centuries. Zionism was only the latest such effort. The Jewish presence was not large and in charge. But no other people ever established a Palestinian political entity beyond a subjugated posession of some other home power, including the Arabs. The land lay largely empty, desolate, fallow, waiting for us as it were. Just because it was a prophecy doesn’t make it invalid if it was true. Bringing up prophecies, the major Arab claim to Israel is their own prophecies of world domination. They think of the entire earth the way the Jews think about Israel. The rest of the world is your problem, but Israel/Palestine or whatever you want to call it is ours. I see no reason for you to take sides unless you are a Muslim. Whether you believe in the Bible or not is irrelevant. You would have to be saying that the Koran, or the New Testament for that matter is more authoritative. If you don’t believe in any of them, you really have nothing to say to those who do, other than that you are glad to butt out of the discussion. Don’t drag in racial theory and all that crap. The fact is that there is not separation between politics and religion in Judaism and Islam. There is a Jewish nation under Jewish Constitutional law. Foreigners, including Arabs, are entitles to all human rights, but not necessarily civil and certainly not national rights in Palestine. I have no fear of the term Palestine, because that is nothing but a Roman name for Israel. Admittedly one created to erase the Jewish identity, but the Romans are now a pile of sand and sheep lovers while the nation of Israel lives. Comment by Ben Plonie on 6/11/08 at 1:10 am Oh, dear...it’s fun time, I see… To note: I never stated that YOU referred to Arabs as cockroaches; however, many prominent cittizens nd officials have uttered such hateful speech [http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/palestinians.html]. It is quite a large page. Okay...let’s not impugn my motives..."I am glad you welcome my response, but having been through this before, I have not the slightest confidence that you will enage anything I say with integrity. Nor focus. I will be amazed if you respond to one thiong I say without changing the subject.” Have no worries on that point - I wouldn’t waste your time nor mine, if I were not willing to do so...though I must say, I feel that you did not respond to very salient points, and instead took the time to point out things that were not intended, as in the previous point. I reiterate: I never accused you of saying that hateful thought about Palenstinians. Period. Why is it an “oxymoron” for Israel to exist side-by-side with Palestine? It sounds as if you feel that the Arabs have NO PLACE AT ALL on that land. I find that absurd. “And in that context, the fairly humane and careful ‘treatment’ of evil savage Arabs in Israel who tried to steal our place and kill and terrorize us becomes clarified. ‘Never again” refers to the response to the extermination of the Jews in Europe, for which the term ‘genocide’ was coined.” - do you really hold to the idea that this is the WORST loss of human life ever suffered? Do you know how many Germans died in WW2? Twenty million. Do you know how many Japanese died? Forty-five million. My wonder is why the Holocaust museums don’t make mention of the others who died in WW2. “Mr. Junk Scientist”...wow...that wasn’t very cordial...should I consider this an ad-hominem attack? Let’s see what else we have forthcoming… Oh, yes...here we go...I was engaged in conversation with someone months ago, on much the same subject. I told him that his endorsement of the idea of displacement was akin to coming home and finding your home broken into, and the invader declaring ownership of the property, because his ancestors wrote him a letter with the address and apartment number included...or in other words, “Possession is nine-tenths of the law”. Laughable idea, but not that sentiment..."they don’t belong there”? That is a monstrous thought. You can really sit there and state that this land belongs to someone, and is denied to others, based on PROPHECIES?!? How many times have people been toldd tha the world is ending? Aren’t those prophecies? I should believe these statements? As I stated...I base my opinions on FACT. No ooga-booga for me. Now as to the research...you must be on a different internet than I am...there are literally thousands of maps and references to Palestine...I am aware that history is written by the victors, but even Britain admits to the existence of a Palestine. You have heard of the Balfour Declaration, yes? Do the words PALESTINE appear in them? If so, the reference is to an EXISTING LAND and INDIGENOUS POPULATION. Who are the “they” that you refer to who “unfortunately neglected to keep records of it, and every other traveler to the region simply didn’t notice the Palestinian society”? Now for this gem: “But no other people ever established a Palestinian political entity beyond a subjugated posession of some other home power, including the Arabs. The land lay largely empty, desolate, fallow, waiting for us as it were”. Amazing...do you often go to friend’s domiciles and tell them that they’re not using their land properly? That’s a tad arrogant. Now...I would say that YOU are responsible for the spreading of propaganda. There is NO reference to world domination in the Quran...in fact, it it very closely aligned with Christianity. I allow individuals to follow their dreams...as long as they don’t infringe upon MY RIGHT to disbelieve in them. “If you don’t believe in any of them, you really have nothing to say to those who do, other than that you are glad to butt out of the discussion.” Why do you presume that I have NOTHING to add to the conversation? Just because I’ve never fallen off a building, I’m not allowed to speak on it? That way lies madness and absurdity. Oh, yes...when I got to the end of your reply, I was wondering what you’d say in regards to the physiological similarities across racial boundaries...it seems that you don’t wish to discuss it at all. Is that because you believe that DNA is “junk science”? Unless YOU have some background in researching such matters, maybe YOU should not speak of such things. “Foreigners, including Arabs, are entitles to all human rights, but not necessarily civil and certainly not national rights in Palestine.” Doesn’t sound like a nice place to visit - you mean that I can’t take my civil rights as a human being for granted if I am in Israel/Palestine, but I am not an Israeli, nor Jewish? And you call Israel a democracy? I’ll sign off with this: the verification code for this posting was 61area...I feel as if I have found Area 61 with some of the verbiage you’ve posted. And THAT is the closest I will come to an ad-hominem attack. Hope to hear from you soon, Ben. Comment by hANOVER fIST on 6/11/08 at 8:57 pm I hope you have fun, because I certainly will. I am sure you have never met anyone like me. “I understand that you may regard them as “cockroaches” and “crocodiles that eat any meat they are fed”, and other silly proclamations”. What does the word ‘you’ refer to in that sentence? Let’s not weasel out of it. You say: I reiterate: “I never accused you of saying that hateful thought about Palenstinians.” But you did. These kinds of red herings are the tooth decay by which you seek to undermine my points. No problem except as you deflect attention to the truth. The page you pointed to consists of many truths, many lies and many irrelevancies. But you must understand that in me you have someone who doesn’t give a fig about any statements of the political Zionists. I don’t care about Herzl’s diary or the lies attributed to it, or Ben Gurion’s comments or his alleged or planted or lied-about comments. I don’t care about Avraham Burg. I don’t care about fifty non-entity politicians who may or may not have said something when they were 26 years old. They do not define Israel or Palestine for me. Neither does the Balfour Declaration, a political product of its time. Even after eliminating the lies of the Arabs and neoNazis, the political Zionists are no more than the tail of the Judaic lion, which has been allive for longer than every other civilization and society. To address your point about the worst loss ever suffered - yes. It is the worst for this reason. The Germans died because they were dedicated and zealous in the cause of dominating a world which did not want to be dominated. Same for the Japanese. That is understandable. Nobody says ‘Never Again’ to that because it will happen again given the same provocation. Nobody (well, maybe the Russians, being even lower low-lifes) killed Germans just to kill Germans. They were not killed because of the Jews, incidentally, the Allies were all pacifist isolationist humanist pragmatists while that was going on. With the Jews it was personal. The Jews died as they always have because someone wanted all of the Jews dead. Having failed to defeat their national and spiritual ideology in twenty centuries of barabarism. There were no greater Germany-lovers than the German Jews. They were in the forefront of culture and non-combatants in the war. That is what made this the worst war crime. I stated my reasons for calling you a junk scientist, that is a practitioner of junk science. You are the one who capitalized it, so it is fair for me to point out your intellectual laziness and dishonesty, your betrayal of the ideals of science. It is the same sense as pointing out that the VERY FIRST social institutions to throw the Jews overboard in Nazi Germany were not the laborers and the rednecks - it was the scientists, the pencil-necks, the Universities, the hospitals. Einstein had less than zero interest (same for Herzl in his day) in Jewishness until he had his nose rubbed in it. As far as your conversation of displacement, it is very powerful, as applies to the Jews in Israel. You just have to keep straight who are the cowboys and who are the Indians. Whiel the Romans subjugated the Jewish polity seven centuries before the first Arab entered the land, Judea remained a Jewish land. Many Jews were killed, enslaved and exiled, but slaves were redeemed, Jews remained on their lands and villages, and in fact became Roman citizens, something allowed only to landowners. Five centuries before the first Arab entered the land, the Romans sought to erase the Jewish identity of the land by renaing it ‘Palestine’ in revenge for the Bar Kochba revolt in 135 CE. These actions by foreign dictators did not make the land non-Jewish nor Roman. The Jews never called the land ‘Palestine’ nor did anyone else other than Christian scholars deriving from the Roman culture. Of course there are Western refences to ‘Palestine’, but nobody over the centuries ever used that name until the West involved itself once again in the region. The grass-roots knew better. When the Islamic Conquest arrived in 632 CE, fueled by prophesies, that’s prophesies, please don’t neglect to notice my use of the term prophecies, since you have referred many time to the illegitamacy of prophecies, ooga booga, the Arabs threw the Jews off their lands and villages, expropriated their labor, and colonized the land. For them., “Possession is nine-tenths of the law”, but not for us, not in Israel/Palestine. And not for you by your own admission. What right have you to take sides in Islamic prophecies over Jewish ones? In waht way does that differ from the looting of Jewish factories and gold teeth by the Nazis? I’ll grant you this: If Israel was extinct you could have your way with it. But we are not extinct. As an atheist, your advice to believers is phantasmal. But this is key: Israel understands itself to be an eternal nation, with an eternal domicile in the land of Israel. This is documented in our constitutional documents that far precede all others on Earth. You don’t have to accept it, only we do. If you want to say that Israel has lost its home and its right at a given point, say so and we will have a real disagreement. But don’t waste our time time telling us that the land belongs to some ‘friends’ of ours that have the right to use it as they see fit and we arrogantly don’t. They neither acquired it lawfully nor did we relinquish it willingly. The real ‘scientific’ fraud lies here: As I said and as you cannot refute: Certainly the soil of Palestine/Israel has existed since prehistoric days, and certainly the Western societies including Britain and its Balfour Declaration call it Palestine. But (other than Jewish) there has never been an independant political entity of Palestine, with a Palestinian government, culture, society, institututions, money, music, rulers. As a scientific researcher who has somehow overlooked it to date, I leave it to your talents to unearth the loudly trumpeted portions of the Koran dealing with the Dar Al Islam and the Dar Al harb, with the treatment and status of dhimmis in Muslim society and with the mission to expand that scociety, with Charles Martelle and most of the history of the world since Mohammed stole the first jew’s real estate and beheaded him in Arabia. This is as I said more of a problem for you than me. However, London will be Islamic before Jerusalem. Wake up and smell the Jihad. We can discuss DNA and I assume I am better equipped to do so than are you, but I assure you that for this discussion it is irrelevant. What is relevant is National DNA, not physical DNA. As would be evident to you on the number 2 bus in Jerusalm, Jews are not a race, or more properly stated they are the most racially diverse nation on earth. The blackest and brownest and yellowest and reddest and whitest Jew has full national rights above the most inbred Mesopotamian. The reasons for this are interesting but irrelevant. Judaism transcends race, something your most ardent Socialist will never understand and never achieve. And with all of that, the DNA connections among us have been confirmed. Because our ‘stuff’ is real. Now you stagger from racial theory to political theory. Which is it, or is Israel just on the wrong side of every possible issue in your view? Don’t bother answering, I know your answer. To quote myself, “Foreigners, including Arabs, are entitled to all human rights, but not necessarily civil and certainly not national rights in Palestine.” I thought that was pretty clear. Your response (as expected) propmtly proceeded to muddy the waters between human and civil and national rights. Human rights to oversimplify have to do with toleration, and absence of coercion. Civil rights have to do with participitory government. National rights have to do with something that essentially does not exist in the West, and is often confused for that reason. Israel is a democracy, but that is not its primary defintion and purpose. In other words, if democratic ideals would work to eradicate its definition as the Jewish homeland, than those national rights would have to take precedence. And if you don’t like it, stay home wherever that is. I call Israel a global reservation for the Jewish nation, just as God (sorry) intended. My analogy is this: Suppose the Cherokee nation is in posession of a territory, but democracy demands that the local Scottish-Irish or Scandinavian population may move in, and democratically change the by-laws of the reservation to open it up to condos and timeshares. That would destroy the Cherokee character of the place. Obviously, the Cherokee reservation has to be taken off the table so that it is preserved as a reservation. Same for Isral and the Jews. In that sense, I am neither insulted nor uncomfortable not calling Israel a democracy. That is, demovratic institutions are only desirable within the larger context. I was hoping for a little amusement at least from your ironic reference to Area 61, however a cursory Google search turns up nothing meaningful. Perhaps a fitting metaphor for your degree of factual precision. Comment by Ben Plonie on 6/12/08 at 1:30 am Greetings! Interesting bit of verbiage...I’m sure we’re boring anyone who comes here, so I’ll be brief: Let me speak to what initally brought me to this forum - that being the article in question: “McCain tells AIPAC that Obama would endanger Israel”. Here’s my quandary: Why are the candidates for the office of the President of the UNITED STATES being mandated to perform ISRAEL’S bidding? When did Israel become the 51st state? I want to be clear: WE THE PEOPLE of the UNITED STATES OF AMERICA, require candidates that will PUT AMERICA FIRST SECOND AND LAST on their list of priorities. I’m not for an isolationist policy...but we need to take the U.S. off of the unmanned sidecar that is our economy right now...and I don’t see what obesiance to a foreign nation has to do with that. What say you? Comment by hANOVER fIST on 6/14/08 at 2:58 pm As I said, “...having been through this before, I have not the slightest confidence that you will engage anything I say with integrity. Nor focus. I will be amazed if you respond to one thing I say without changing the subject.” Need I say more? OK, now that you have abdicated your former erroneous and offensive points, such as they were, let’s change the subject. You new erroneous and offensive points are these: - Implying that the candidates are under a ‘mandate’. The only mandate candidates labor under is political expediency. You may well ask why they express support for Israel to the American committee devoted to presenting Israel’s case in Washington, or why they express support for labor to Main Street and business to Wall Street. Duh. It is in their political interest, proving that support for Israel is wide, deep and strong, while support for Israel’s enemies is the fringe phenomenon those of us in the know say it is. - “To perform Israel’s bidding” What bidding? To inhibit Iran’s nuclear program? Lead, follow or get out of the way. Or, if the US doesn’t do it, let it not complain when Israel does. - 51st State. Nicely put. That could be fleshed out in a more positive way. When it comes to it, the US relationship with tiny Israel is more productive than that of many or most of the states themselves, not to mention the EU and the UN combined, but the divergence in purpose if not interests and values make that a moot point. Apropos of what I said just earlier, in spite of your bombastic and pompous capitalization, your views are not those WE THE PEOPLE at all. I more represent WE THE PEOPLE than you do. Certainly America must be a top priority for our government. That must be why we have outsourced our production to China and India, why we have subcontracted our labor to Central and South America, why we are allowing our citizens to compete with the entire third world, why our businesses are competing with foreign governments, in obeisance to ... Israel? I think not. Israel is the cause of America’s problems? Just between us, did you vote for Par Buchanan last time around, or Lyndon LaRouche? I advise you to get your head examined, and your heart too while you’re at it. Comment by Ben Plonie on 6/15/08 at 1:45 am Hahahahaha...semantics will get you NOWHERE in this discussion. First of all...you don’t get to dictate terms of this discussion...I can go wherever I bloody please, and engage in whatever bloody topics I wish...you are free to do the same...but don’t presume that you have any standing over me or my thoughts. I didn’t abdicate ANYTHING...so forget that false premise..I see that you didn’t respond to the point of politicians not enacting the will of AMERICANS. Here’s the meat of it: you seem to be more concerned with the well-being of ISRAEL, while living here in the UNITED STATES, as an “AMERICAN”. Well, as an AMERICAN, you need to focus your efforts into doing WHAT’S GOOD FOR AMERICA. It’s just that simple. If you can’t abide by that, please rescind your American citizenship, and please emigrate back to Israel. We already have enough malcontents within our borders...we don’t need more. No man can serve two masters. Of course, if you wish to actually BE a loyal American, all you need to do is to put AMERICA first, second and last in your list of priorities. Let’s see you attempt to prevaricate your way out of that one. Our country was betrayed in 1913. I am aware of it, and I am working to have our country restored to the glory it exhibited for over 200 years. In 1934, we were almost destroyed by a consortium of scum. Thanks to General Smedley Darlington Butler, we escaped that effort. In 1963, the scum succeeded in removing President John Fitzgerald Kennedy, by means of assassination. This is where the steps were furthered in the quiet takeover of our nation. In 1960, we had a clandestine operation taking place under the guise of the “counter-culture” movement - please go to [httlp://davesweb.cnchost.com]. During the Nixon Administration, we witnessed the Watergate scandal. The story we got was NOT the story researched; it simply got out of hand. This was may the last time that the “mainstream” press performed their job as a watchdog for WE THE PEOPLE. They are now lapdogs for the Military Industrial Complex, while Eisenhower warned us about before his exit from the office of the President of the United States. I’m not going to list every event; everything is easily researchable, but they all lead into NOW. As you indicated: “That must be why we have outsourced our production to China and India, why we have subcontracted our labor to Central and South America, why we are allowing our citizens to compete with the entire third world, why our businesses are competing with foreign governments”. That is absolutely correct - our government has NOT been representing WE THE PEOPLE or our wishes...but that is because THEY FEEL THAT THEY DO NOT NEED TO LISTEN TO US ANYMORE. The electronic voting machines were a HUGE step in disenfranchising the PEOPLE. Remember: “He who casts the vote decides nothing; he who counts the vote decides EVERYTHING.” Do you believe that the current occupant of the office of the President of the United States HONESTLY attained that position? You see, I won’t presume to know your thoughts, as you did when you assumed that I’d vote for a panderer like Patrick Buchanan, or a fringe candidate like Lyndon LaRouche - I’m not interested in many of their positions. As a Real Republican, I wish to restore the greatness that AMERICA once exhibited. Ron Paul recently ended his bid, earlier, so did Dennis Kucinich...but they, along with Bill Richardson, should have been the ONLY candidates running for office. Unless you’re a licensed psychiatrist, I will advise YOu to kindly take your silly advice and stuff it. Not very nice...I didn’t presume to comment on your sanity...you should reciprocate in kind. And don’t presume that I believe some as stupid as the proclamation “Israel is the cause of America’s problems”...in that case, I’d contact my representatives and call for sanctions against Israel for work against the common good of AMERICANS. Lastly...how...from a series of comments, can you presume that you represent WE THE PEOPLE more than I? Just what is it that you think entitles you to such a lofty post? I eagerly await your response. Comment by hANOVER fIST on 6/15/08 at 5:25 pm Quick notes: And don’t presume that I believe someTHING as stupid as the proclamation “Israel is the cause of America’s problems”...in that case, I’d contact my representatives and call for sanctions against Israel for work against the common good of AMERICANS. Really...isn’t that just as intellectually dishonest as when you accused me of stating that YOU SAID, “I understand that you may regard them as “cockroaches” and “crocodiles that eat any meat they are fed”. Note the terminology..."you may regard”...there’s NOTHING THERE that implies that you STATED any such thing. You obviously are in agreement with such sentiments, with your reference to “evil Arabs” and such. Obviously, you feel that Israel can DO NO WRONG. If a Black guy robs a Asian woman’s purse, is it wrong because he robbed the woman, or is it wrong because he’s Black? Now...I think I’ve been taking it easy on you...I’ll mention two things, and see what happens: Dimona U.S.S. Liberty Comment by hANOVER fIST on 6/15/08 at 7:07 pm I did not dictate the terms of the discussion, you did. I responded to your regurgitation of mental and moral mendacity with facts and evidence, and AS PREDICTED you unsuccessfuly tried to change the subject. I call that abdication of the points at issue. On the Internet, it doesn’t matter as long as I force you to be upfront about it. “I don’t begrudge Israel’s existence, but I do begrudge the actions taken against the indigenous population therein. Please understand that “never again” means that for EVERYONE.” “I DEPLORE the actions taken against the Palestinians”. “It sounds as if you feel that the Arabs have NO PLACE AT ALL on that land. I find that absurd.” You are a child. From pretending to cleave to principle, on to “General Smedley Darlington Butler”. As if you have a principled point of view. If you are ignorant, have the guts to refrain from the debate. I know the facts, the history, the principle, and I will wipe the floor with you every time. Any time you can summon the guts and the humility, I will be pleased to supply you with the facts. Any other time, I will show you up as a fraud. I have seen this pattern a million times. From the arch ‘oh, dear’s’ and pretentious hoity-toity vocabulary, your spool is unbwinding in public to reveal another footsoldier in the tinfoil hat brigade. Why waste time with the Trilateral Commission and the Masons? let’s go straight to the reptilian extraterrestrial Zionist overlords of the universe. Remember “of the people, by the people, and for the people?” Who the hell are you to wrap yourself in my Stars and Stripes? Like I almost said, America was founded on the ideal of Jewish values and vision. The official language of the US was very nearly Hebrew, because the classically educated Founding Fathers knew right well that there was no escape from the stinking monarchies and class systems of the Old World without the Hebrew/Israelite/Jewish example. As De Touquevill said, “America is great because her people are good”. As a Jew, I am not disloyal to a good and moral USA, and I will say that the USA has the better chance at achieving goodness than any guilty and evil old regime. Supporting the Jewish people and the Jewish homeland is a positive good. But as a Jew, don’t give me any fascistic “my country right or wrong”. Or I’ll be forced to pull out my old tag line “Been there - Done that - Still doing it!” I might even agree with much of what you say. Public life and media spin have dumbed life down immensely. Your only problem is thinking you are above it all. All I can say is that as a Jew, I exist outside of the Matrix, and you are still in it. Think about it. But if you find yourself having to think too long, give up. Do you honestly think that you have discovered what the oldest living civilization on the planet has not? Think Yoda. Wjen I speak of evil Arabs, I am not referring to those that love their mothers, mind their business, adhere to morality and the will of God, mind their buusiness, make love and music and sport and business. I am of course referring to those that promote murder, theft, and genocide. There are cultural elements invoved, but you may refer to arabsforisrael.com (Arabs and Muslims who Support the State of Israel and the Cause of Peace in the Middle East) as an example of other gentiles who have escaped the Matrix, for inspiration. Some of my best friends are Black Guys (and some of them Jewish), but I doubt that any of yours are. I am happy to see that your big guns are Dimona and the USS Liberty, moron (we have come a long way from SCIENTIST, haven’t we) Dimona. I like that line from “Spencer for hire” Hawk says “when you break the rules, baby, there ain’t no rules”. Get it? When your enemy says their gioal is your annihalation, then nobody on earth, space or time is qualified to give you any advice. Not you, Jesus, LaRouche, or “General Smedley Darlington Butler”. Nobody. The only reason that Sadaam Hussein’s missiles in Gulf War One did not contain chemical and biological warheads was that Israel would have turned Baghdad to nuclear Shake ‘N Bake, and Sadaam knew it, period. USS LIberty I know of two possible scenarios for the Liberty. One is that it was an honest mistake as stated. The first question was what the hell that vessel was doing there in the war zone. Everyone is so outraged about Jonathan Pollard, as if Israel is not crawling with American spies, but I digress. The second question is why the USA under LBJ acepted Israel’s explanation of a mistake. Because the of the reptilian extraterrestrial Zionist overlords of the universe? OK. The tapes of the Israeli lead pilot have been released supporting that. As he said, “Sorry about that but what the hell were they doing in a combat zone?” The second scenario is as per John Loftus of the Justice Department. The USS LIberty was on loan to the politically compromised NSA, feeding Israeli military forward positions to the Egyptian government in time of war, basically betraying an ally to an enemy for weasel purposes. The operational staff complement would not have been informed of this/ According to this scenario Israel exceuted a surgical strike on the communication capability of the ship, and thatwould also explain the American government’s response to the attack (embarrassment). The reason I entered this discussion was the mention of the USS LIberty. Because I know that that is the entre for knaves and fools. Which are you? Comment by Ben Plonie on 6/16/08 at 2:15 am Oh, good - so we’re getting back to the meat of all this… Israel is GUILTY of attempting to perpetrate a false-flag event using the U.S.S. Liberty as the King David Hotel...oh...was THAT an error, as well? Talk about intellectual dishonesty… Captain Ward Boston has come out and PROVEN that the attack was deliberate...after all...WHO BENEFITS? “The reason I entered this discussion was the mention of the USS LIberty. Because I know that that is the entre for knaves and fools. Which are you?” Once again...I AM NOT SUBJECT TO YOUR CLASSIFICATIONS. I am a sovereign human being...ever read Invictus? Comment by hANOVER fIST on 6/16/08 at 7:45 pm That’s neither the meat nor the potatos, Dumkopf. I love this - an article about Obama endangering Israel that includes the USS Liberty AND the King David Hotel. In response to your naive challenge to me regarding the USS Liberty, I merely presented the two plausible scenarios that thoroughly make sense of the incident, one mainstream and one (mutually) subrosa, incidentally proving that I know more about it than you do. Which is OK, since your only goal is to try to smear the Jewish State, speaking of intellectual dishonesty. What these scenarios have in common is: One; there is nothing ‘false-flag’ about them, other than the false flag of your intellectual incompetence. Two; they portary Israel as guily of nothing at all. Well, I looked up Captain Ward Boston. He’s easy to find, with articles in every radical communist and anarchist, neo-Nazi and Islamic Jihad website. Haven’t been into daivdduke.com in some time, thanks for the opportunity. As you said, WHO BENEFITS? And what is plausible? His brilliant conclusion is that Israel attacked a cute little unarmed US government ship of its major ally and sponsor and partner state, minding its own business in a free-fire combat zone, with the purpose of murdering its crew and sinking it, which they were unsuccessful in doing for an hour or two in spite of using air and sea missiles and bombs. The pilot of the Israel mission has stated - if he wanted to sink the ship it would have been sunk within minutes. But for the benefit of the new Internet generation who may not have seen this garbage recycled and debunked over and over for thirteen years… The King David Hotel was not full of tourists playing badminton. It had been commandeered as the military headquarters of the British army, which was engaged in an illegal war with the Jewish authorities in Eretz Yisrael, (’Palestine’ in Pig Latin). Not only was it a legitimate miltary target, but phone calls were made in advance of the bombing to allow an orderly evacuation of all personnel from the headquarters. (Jews are not only the best possible friend a nation could have but the best possible enemy as well.) The arrogant British did not order such an evacuation, because, just as you say ‘I AM NOT SUBJECT TO YOUR CLASSIFICATIONS’, they likewise said ‘WE DON’T TAKE ORDRS FROM NO STINKIN’ JEWS’. Well, I’m not saying every last one deserved the death penalty but a with the Liberty, Israel was guilty of nothing in that bombing. But since you are subject to such upset and outrage from actions by Jews of forty and sixty years ago, kindly supply us with examples of your outrage at the bombing of the Marine barracks by Hezbollah, the bombing of the Kobar Towers in Saudi Arabia, the two embassies in Africa, the Cole, the capture and torture of American diplomats, the genocide in Rwanda, Sudan, the Cogo, thedisplacement of tens of thousands of Zimbabwians. Just so we know that you are not a total phony ass. Links to your comments as hanover fist dated before today will serve. Comment by Ben Plonie on 6/16/08 at 11:40 pm Oh, dear...since I’m such a bloody Dumpkopf, I couldn’t POSSIBLY make such a thing happen...whatever will I do? You are a tool. What proof have you that the KDH was commandeered? As far as I am concerned, that is just a whacked-out attempt at justifying MURDER. For the record...David Duke is hardly anyone I would regard as a leader...you’ve really run out of material if that wet-brain is the best you can do. Captain Ward Boston is a HERO...let me repeat it again...HE IS A HERO...and NOTHING you can make up out of whole cloth will change that. Old age is the best defense against scumbags. That’s why Mark Felt came out before his death...that’s why E. Howard Hunt released those tapes...you can’t scare anyone who has NOTHING TO FEAR. “But since you are subject to such upset and outrage from actions by Jews of forty and sixty years ago, kindly supply us with examples of your outrage at the bombing of the Marine barracks by Hezbollah, the bombing of the Kobar Towers in Saudi Arabia, the two embassies in Africa, the Cole, the capture and torture of American diplomats, the genocide in Rwanda, Sudan, the Cogo, thedisplacement of tens of thousands of Zimbabwians. Just so we know that you are not a total phony ass. Links to your comments as hanover fist dated before today will serve.” Wow...you mean you think that my outrage is reserved only for ISRAELIS who commit genocidal acts against others? Note...NOT JEWS...ISRAELIS. The two are not necessarily interchangeable, are they? Let’s see how intellectually HONEST you are NOW. Comment by hANOVER fIST on 6/17/08 at 7:40 pm Source: Liberty News The Newsletter of the USS Liberty Veterans Association Issues 3 & 4 Volume 8/March-June 1990 Comments: During this time period the USS Liberty issues were featured in the Sentinel. Research with the paper and the Keene, New Hampshire public library did not show that the article was actually printed in the letters to the editor. However, the Liberty Newsletter confirms it was written and sent to the paper. Thursday, April 19, 1990 Letter to the Editor Keene Sentinel Keene, New Hampshire Editor: I recently received the Liberty News, published by the USS Liberty Veterans Association, featuring the 1989 months long exchanges in your paper relating to the Israeli attack on the USS Liberty. At this late date, Id like to throw in my two cents on a topic brought up by two letters critical of the Sentinel and not answered by your supporters. The two letters stated that Israel had paid reparations to the wounded and next-of-kin of those killed and to the U.S. for the damage to Liberty. I take exception to that. I will explain that Israel didnt pay one thin dime. U.S. TAXPAYERS PAID ALL THAT WAS PAID! An arrangement was agreed to by Israel only after U.S. aid to Israel was increased from $13 million in Fiscal Year 1967 to a whopping $76.8 million in Fiscal Year 1968. That aid increase took care of negotiations for the crew, dead and wounded. These payments were made with U.S. Government checks in late Spring, 1968. Israel then refused to pay for the LIBERTY damage. The United States government then increased the aid to Israel to $121.7 million for FY 1969. The new negotiations began and Israel agreed to pay $7.6 million damages for the $40 million shipwhich was sold for less than $200,000.00 as scrap. But Israel DID NOT PAY as promised when U.S. aid was cut to $71 million for FY 1970, even though that was still five times the U.S. aid of 1967. And the bill remained unpaid (and not deducted from the increased U.S. aid). With the election of Ronald Reagan in November of 1980, Israel was unsure of how good a friend to Israel Reagan would be. A bird in the hand, so to speak and Israel initiated new USS LIBERTY damage negotiations with old friend Jimmy Carter. In December, 1980 the state Department announced that Israel had agreed to pay a total of $6 million for the LIBERTY in three payments over the next three years. A State Department official was quoted (as saying), The book is closed on the USS LIBERTY. That was 10-1/2 years after Israel had agreed to pay $7.6 million. No interest was to be paid by Israel. Even this last agreement was not kept per the agreement. It was reported in 1988, five years after Carters agreement should have been paid off, that Israel had finally paid the last installment. Between the attack by Israel on the LIBERTY in 1967 and the last payment, some $45 billion is U.S. (U.S. taxpayer money) has been given to Israel by bought U.S. politicians. Any payments were deducted from ever increasing U.S. aid to Israel. But that is not the end of the story. To give money to Israel, the U.S. must first borrow the money and pay interest on that borrowed money. The money and the interest become part of our FEDERAL DEBT, now more than THREE TRILLION DOLLARS. We, the U.S. taxpayers, are today paying interest on the FIRST DOLLAR in aid given to Israel in 1949 and all in between. Using U.S. treasury interest tables on interest rates we have paid, year by year, to borrow money through 1983 and using 10 percent (1984-1990), AID TO ISRAEL WITH INTEREST COMPOUNDED ON THE PRINCIPAL AMOUNTS TO AN ABSOLUTE MINIMUS COST TO U.S. TAXPAYERS OF $128.138 BILLION (ONE HUNDRED TWENTY-EIGHT BILLION, ONE HUNDRED THIRTY-EIGHT MILLION DOLLARS). All aid to Israel is now in GRANTS, never to be repaid. And unlike aid to other countries that receive their aid quarterly, Israel is given all their aid at the start of each of our Fiscal Years, thereby costing United States taxpayers an additional $50 million or so in interest each year. And aid to Israel is not subject to any cuts if budget cuts are made necessary by the Gramm-Rudman Act. No, Israel did not pay reparations for the USS LIBERTY nor to the wounded and the next of kin of those killed as Fred Slavic and four others stated in their letters. Even United States aid to Egypt is to pay Egypt for its peace with Israel. Gip D. Oldham, Jr. 6008 E. University Boulevard Dallas, TX 75206 Comment by hANOVER fIST on 6/17/08 at 9:56 pm ------------------------------ Dimona - Strike one ------------------------------ USS LIberty - Strike two ------------------------------ King David Hotel… It is not in question that the King David Hotel housed the British military command and administration and the British Criminal Investigation Division. If you are really unaware of that, and just not to clog the blog, I advise you to Google something like: “king david hotel” headquarters Although we both know that ‘what proof have you’ is just a typical stalling tactic on your part. The confirmation is not difficult, and you don’t have to resort to wacko websites to find it. For the benefit of any readers you have tried to fool: The attack was carried out to motivate the British to depart having betrayed their Mandate and the Jewish people, and having been the proximate cause of the death of millions in a pincer movement with Hitler to deny fleeing refugees of genocide a place in their own homeland. It was also in response to a raid by the British on the Jewish Agency in which sensitive documents were siezed. Because of the cowardice of Sir John Shaw who forbade the staff to evacuate the building but miraculously survived the attack, it was necessary for him to insist there had been no warning and the attack was a terrorist act, although evidence was introduced in the British Parliament in 1979 proving that staff was aware of the warnings. What! A senior official lie? Hahahahaha ------------------------------ King David Hotel - STRIKE THREEEEEEEEEEEEEEE ------------------------------ Captain Ward Boston may or not be sincere, but at best he was just out of the loop, a dupe or victim of rogue elements of the NSA intelligence apparatus. “Wow...you mean you think that my outrage is reserved only for ISRAELIS who commit genocidal acts against others?” In a word, yes. And by the way, Jews/Israelis/Zionists/Palestinians (meaning Jews as of the KDH attack)… all the same thing. Zionsism is just the nationalistic component of Judaism, resulting in a designation of ‘Israeli’ for secualr purposes. All those making distinctions are just playing with themselves. You are an antisemite, be loud and be proud. You bring out the flag and patriotism and America First and all that jazz, but you can’t show yourself as giving a damn about current, severe, truly genocidal and terroristic attacks on the US and America. I am practically spoon-feeding you the opportunity to refute what I say, and all you can do is sputter. Here is a hint - sputtering is pretty comical and ineffective in a text box, even when you sprinkle in CAPITAL LETTERS. Comment by Ben Plonie on 6/17/08 at 10:42 pm Hmmm, our posts have crossed. Typical of your rude type, you just cut and paste crap into blogs and do no work yourself, while I have to ruin my manicure typing it all in personally. Like I said, the Liberty personnel are simply out of the loop on what was done to them by the NSA. As for the old ‘aid to Israel’ thing again, Israel got less than peanuts for Jimmy Carter’s fraudulent Camp David accord with Egypt. Israel lost all of the following for the lousy three billion *which they did not ask for incidentally 1) a tremendous airfield built by themselves on the sand, 2) an oil find developed by them which would have given them energy independence, 3) necessary strategic depth, 4) control over the Gaza border with Egypt which is now a hellhole of terrorism and rocket smuggling 5) An entire city of the future built on the sand called Yamit, at enormous financial and political cost to Israel. In addition, the three billion is to be spent in the USA providing US industry with jobs and exports. So the aid to Israel acted as a government subsidy to the citizens of America with Israel being a middle man. On the other hand, Egypt lost nothing at all, gained back the Sinai Peninsula AND two billion dollars of precisou American taxpayer money which basically buys them the spit that Egypt aims in our face. You know nothing and learn less. I eagerly await your focussed reply to my last couple of dozen specific points. I hope you don’t mind if I don’t hold my breath while I wait. Comment by Ben Plonie on 6/17/08 at 10:58 pm “...Zionsism is just the nationalistic component of Judaism, resulting in a designation of ‘Israeli’ for secualr purposes” More idiotic, self serving polemics from vic. What a surprise. “Israeli” is a designation for a citizen of the Jewish State, which for all your flag waving and jingoism, you are not. Since your own belief in Zionism is a qualified one and your love of Jews is selective, I’m alawys amused to see you jump into the JTF phone booth and come bursting out as; “SUPER-YID”, Defender of the Faith, and part-time Stand-Up Philosopher. Yes, yes. I understand. You’re never given the credit your due as a “Gibor Yisrael”. I mean its not your fault you can’t go live in Israel, isn’t that right? While I’m sure its tittilating to run around Fresh Meadows in a Blue and White Lycra Jump suit, complete with TsiTsim, kippah srulgah, while spouting talmudic tripe skewed to rationalize your sickness , its just not the same as wearing an orange t-shirt, engaging in terrorism, incitement, sedition against the state, and constant attempts to spiritually disenfranchise those ISRAELIS who don’t share in your AMREICAN JEWISH psychosis, Jewish exceptionalism, theo-fascistic worldview, or your xenophobia. Comment by Shoded Yam on 6/18/08 at 12:45 pm (continued) Sorry, forgot some more reasons for the 3 billion dollar token compensation to Israel for signing away its assets and security 6) Israel gave up military control and oversight of the Straits of Tiran which control shipping to the southern port of Eilat. Blockade of that was the immediate cause of the Six Day War. 7) Israel gave up the Israel-built and developed resort facilities at Sharm El-Sheikh 9) Israel gave up access and protection of the Suez Canal. Now we know that Israel had been denied access to the Canal despite all past agreements, and Israel would be denied access to the Canal in spite of the Camp David Agreement. But the best status is obviously to have access to the Canal. 10) Israel enable two billion dollars of aid and arms to Egypt which has no enemies in the region at all in contrast to Israel, and no place to even absorb two billion in its economy in a productive way. Who’s gonna attack Egypt? Sudan? Turkey? Nobody. The only possible use for weapons to Egypt is to use them or hyold them as a threat to Israel. 11) Ditto for the ‘Palestinians’, who would have had to find a solution other than terrorizing the state that literally surrounded them in Gaza. I am sure we could come up with another dozen reasons but these and the ones above are the big ones. For example, Israelis go to see the pyramids and all that, but Egyptians are not largely restricted from visits to Israel, causing a cash and tourism drain to Egypt, I don’t know in what amount, and not counting the occasional slaughter of Israelis in Egypt. I think Israel should have gotten six billion a year for what they gave up, and I think Israel should not have signed at all. They would have had far more economic and military security without that stupid agreement, which additionaly also enables Israel’s enemies to complain about it. For Israel, Camp David I was lose/lose/lose/lose/lose..., and three billion doesn’t begin to mitigate that. Comment by Ben Plonie on 6/18/08 at 1:34 pm Ah, look what has scurried into the discussion! I was wondering where you were. I thought perhaps… you were struck dumb, or just plain dumb to begin with, by my masterful refutation of Captain America up there, who champions the British colonial system when he runs out of ‘America’ material. As long as Israel is at fault. At the very least I would think you would contend with that vile creep, but nooo--o-o-o. You must be a masochist, obsessed with losing to me once again. Before I forget, it will not be necessary for you to come to New York. I was in Kossar’s yesterday, and they ship to California and Florida (anywhere actually) by FedEX. They’re that good. http://www.kossarsbialys.com/order_frame_page.htm But I digress. That ““Israeli” is a designation for a citizen of the Jewish State” definition is a recent and narrow intellectual distinction. It did not apply in 1946 which is the timeframe for my discussion. As I said, in 1946 even ‘Palestinian’ meant a Jew. Arabs did not call thmselves Palestinians. Even the VERY FEW Arabs with residence in the Jewish homeland for any time called themselves either Arabs or Syrians. Arabs did not recognize an independent identity for Palestine. As far as my Zionism, it is a superset of your Zionism which is the selective one. My Zionism was born somewhat prior to yesterday in contrast with yours, as with the love, the state etc. That is what makes me come out of the phone booth invulnerable to creatures like hanover fist and kanoobie or whatever above, while you are indeed vulnerable. Because your whole concept is a fascist one in which the newly hatched State is supreme, so that if Arabs took over, or gained the civil rights to outvote the Jews, you would have no answer but to sing the new anthem. I on the other hand have a living connection with all of the Jews of history who lived and died as Jews, something certainly over a billion. Israel is bigger than the State. I just read this fatasized speculation, an imaginary chaplain speaking to newly liberated survivors of Aushwitz” “I have a vision that you will yet live to see the creation of a Jewish state in Eretz Yisrael with Jerusalem as its capital. And, after vanquishing all the Arab armies in six days, your children will begin celebrating their bar mitzvahs at the Kotel, where Jews from all over the word will come to pray under the protection of the strongest army in the entire region.” Even with their wits dulled by starvation and disease, this group of survivors might have regarded the reverend as completely mad. Nevertheless, stay with me and imagine if he had then continued to prophesy: “And then, having kept Jerusalem united under Jewish rule for 40 years, the new State of Israel will be asked by the world to give it back to the Arabs. And they will do so, with the stroke of a pen and not so much as a shot fired.” There is your State, because that is what is going on. Comment by Ben Plonie on 6/18/08 at 2:06 pm “..You must be a masochist, obsessed with losing to me once again.” Losing to you? You keep mentioning that.You also keep congratulating yourself. In light of the fact that no one else is, this can only be attributed to your chronic case of autism. The only person who’s obsessed with winning and losing is you, and likely because of the lack of confidence you feel in your responses since their not backed up by anything other than self-serving polemics and sophistry. Since you’re a lunatic, the concept of winning or losing really doesn’t apply here since you’re not playing with a full deck and any such claims on my part would be irrelevant and in bad form. “… It did not apply in 1946 which is the timeframe for my discussion. As I said, in 1946 even ‘Palestinian’ meant a Jew. Arabs did not call thmselves Palestinians. Even the VERY FEW Arabs with residence in the Jewish homeland for any time called themselves either Arabs or Syrians. Arabs did not recognize an independent identity for Palestine” What does this have to do with the price of tea in China? The State of Isarel exists. People such as yourself did not build the state, do not serve the state and are actively working to subvert the state(weren’t you the one that said Rabin deserved to be assasinated?). On second thought, your babble does make sense, since the only way you’re going to be an Israeli or a “Palestinian” is to get in a time machine. “...At the very least I would think you would contend with that vile creep, but nooo--o-o-o. You must be a masochist, obsessed with losing to me once again.” I agreed with much of what you said to this guy, especially regarding the Liberty. In regards to the rest of it(ie the peace w/egypt etc); the usual half truths, suppositions, half-baked conclusions, not supported by facts. In any event, since I enjoy watching you take your pychosis out for a spin every now and again, I saw no reason to involve myself and spoil the fun . “.. Israel is bigger than the State.” Nope. Sorry. Israel is Israel and Fresh Meadows is the shtetl. “..As far as my Zionism, it is a superset of your Zionism which is the selective one.” I’m afraid not. Your Zionism is academic, its a talking point which you have never acted on and now, likely won’t be able to. Whereas mine, though not steeped in halachic rationales, is at least quantified by my service, by my labors, by my Teudat Zachout, my Pinhas Hoger, and my Israeli son who speaks very good hebrew for his age at 23 months. “..Before I forget, it will not be necessary for you to come to New York. I was in Kossar’s yesterday, and they ship to California and Florida (anywhere actually) by FedEX. They’re that good.” Too late. Already bought the tickets. Don’t worry. I’ll call before I come over. Comment by Shoded Yam on 6/18/08 at 3:22 pm Certainly every game or competition must have a frame of reference. Just so we are on the same page: when I refer to losing or winning, I am talking about accomplishmnt in rational thinking, comprehension, completeness and accuracy of facts and knowledge, competent research, and then organization and presentation of that knowledge and those facts to communicate a point. That is where I win and you lose. If you want to enlarge the field to include histrionic and flamboyant posturing and namecalling, prancing around barging into ongoing interactions with no regard to their contents like a self-absorbed attention whore, then your crown is secure. It’s no contest. Out of benevolence of spirit I will endeavor to decipher your thought processes. Incidentally if you read my stuff with your brain instead of your hormones you would probably agree with me more. Here is a hint: most of what I say is fact-checkable so that your agreement is irrelevant. My remark regarding Jews/Israelis/Zionists/Palestinians was in reply to the poster’s feeble attempt to portray himself as anti-Israeli rather than anti-Jew. Funny, he doesn’t look chareidi… but I digress. As I said, in 1946 post-Holocaust pre-State Eretz Yisrael, this distinction was not meaningful. Get it? Never mind, let’s move on. My Zionism is what Zionism was before it was christened (I crack myself up) Zionism. What you are talking about is Labor Zionism and political Zionism which is not that intellectually powerful and has already failed in significant respects. Luckily for you, classical historic religious Zionism is the safety net which will save you and your 23 month old Israeli son when your Zionism finally sits rusting in a ditch put of gas, like the 1948 jeeps and trucks along the highway. Comment by Ben Plonie on 6/18/08 at 7:46 pm “..I am talking about accomplishmnt in rational thinking, comprehension, completeness and accuracy of facts and knowledge, competent research, and then organization and presentation of that knowledge and those facts to communicate a point. That is where I win and you lose.” Look, as I said. You’re a lunatic. To say I bested a lunatic isn’t saying much. Conversly, any claims of success by said lunatic, would have to be taken with a rather large grain of salt. However, according to your criteria you haven’t won anything. Research? What Research Vic? Cruising the internet looking for numbers to crunch to validate your wortldveiw while dismissing any information to the contrary is not research. It’s chicanery, it’s self-validation, and since it’s only purpose is to further your particular brand of poitics, intellectually dishonest. Rational thinking? What rational thinking vic? You’re a raving lunatic who goes around uttering such pearls as; “Rabin got what he deserved” and Guliani’s gonna be the next President”. “… If you want to enlarge the field to include histrionic and flamboyant posturing and namecalling” No, its not that complicated. You’re a shtetl yid who styles himself as a Jewish Defender. But having hid out in Queens his whole life, resents his Israeli betters. Since you spend most of your time deliberatly misinterpreting religous texts,in any pissing conetst you like to trott out your cornocopia of useless, arcane shtetl folk wisdom in leiu of anything more substantial. I simply enjoy ridiculing you because I know it bothers you and because you know I know it bothers you. “..and then organization and presentation” This is a blog, not high school English Lit. You won’t recieve extra credit because you placed your book report in a clear plastic binder. You can list all your suppositions and assertions, crunch the numbers nine ways from sunday. Without epirical evidence, your opinions are as welcome as beans on a bus trip and as useful as tits on a bull. Comment by Shoded Yam on 6/18/08 at 8:51 pm “...Here is a hint: most of what I say is fact-checkable so that your agreement is irrelevant” Sure the facts are checkable. You’re assertions, unsubstantaited suppositions and politically motivated conclusions derived from those facts are another matter, fecal matter to be exact. Comment by Shoded Yam on 6/18/08 at 9:00 pm “...As I said, in 1946 post-Holocaust pre-State Eretz Yisrael, this distinction was not meaningful.” Exactly, hence the desire for you and Mr. Peabody to hop in the wayback machine and find the collective manhood in 1946 that is so absent in 2008. Because today Vic, you’re sh*t outta luck. Adjustments are going to be made to the Law of Return to keep useless mouths such as yourself from immigrating. Israel is tired of footing the bill for American Jewish misfits, malcontents, seditionists, and their offspring. Comment by Shoded Yam on 6/18/08 at 9:18 pm I’m sorry, but I believe that you are spouting a mouthful of GARBAGE...so here goes… Answering Zionist Propaganda by Matt Giwer, © 2002 [June] The West Bank, Gaza and Jerusalem are disputed not occupied. Regardless of which term one chooses, there is no question the squatters are living on land which is owned by individual Palestinians not by them. There is no dispute of that fact. The Golan Heights is occupied territory. Syria offered peace in return for the Golan and Israel refused. There is no dispute of that fact either. Jews have a right to live anywhere they choose Not on land owned by others unless with their permission. The unspoken assumption is Jews have this right, Gentiles do not. God gave the land to the Jews I would expect to find no other claim in books written by Jews. No place in the Bible does it say these Jews and this Israel. The settlers are redeeming the land of Israel. Redeeming is a code word for stealing. Settlers is a code word for squatters. As they are stealing, the squatters are criminals. Even by the Bible, Israel was destroyed for the sins of Solomon. What man may act against the will of God? Even by the Bible, Judea was given to Iraq for the sins of the Jews. What man may act against the will of God? America treated the Indians no better than Israel treats the Palestinians. It is good to see Israel is honest enough to admit it is committing genocide and cultural destruction. Israel conquered the land in the 1967 war. Conquest gives civil jurisdiction over land. It does not give ownership of the land. The government does not own the land. The last country to claim that was Nazi Germany. Governments do not gain ownership by conquest. Israel’s settlement policy was declared a hanging offense at Nuremberg. Israel abjured the acquisition of land by conquest when it joined the UN and subjected itself to war crime charges thereby. Comparing Israel to Nazi Germany is antisemitic. If the shoe fits, wear it. It is all too complex to deal with in simple terms. So stop using simple terms to defend Israel. Criticizing Zionism is antisemitic propaganda. If Zionism were Judaism, antisemitism would be a moral imperative. Zionism is a secular, political movement. It has nothing to do with Judaism or antisemitism. Even Albert Einstein condemned Zionism. Zionism has the most to gain from antisemitism. Palestinians are acting out of irrational hatred. If Zionists had declared their Israel in New York City they would have been driven into the Hudson River. Americans would have done exactly as Palestinians are doing had that happened. The Palestinians are terrorists. Under international law, all peoples have a right to resist military occupation by any means available. If they are terrorists then so were the Jews in the Warsaw Ghetto uprising during WWII. If they are terrorists then so were the founders of Israel. Palestinians have never acknowledged the right of Israel to exist. Israelis have never acknowledged the right of Palestine to exist. Israel has never acknowledged the borders given to it by the UN in 1948. Israel is willing to trade land for peace. The land is not Israel’s to give. Israel can have either land or peace, not both. Total land for total peace. We came to live in peace. Only a child could not have foreseen the conflict. To hear Israelis talk you would think they expected a welcome wagon. Israel is the only democracy in the Middle East. Sort of makes one lose faith in democracy doesn’t it? Arafat was elected. His election was certified as honest by Jimmy Carter. What more does it take? Lebanon is a democracy. Egypt, Iraq and Iran are not in the Middle East. Israel is a strategic ally of the US. The Cold War is over. Whatever utility it had during the Cold War is long gone. The relationship was tactical at best, never strategic. Israel is necessary to provide a safe haven for Jews. Israel is the most dangerous place in the world for Jews to live. Jews who went to live in Israel chose to live in constant danger. Israel can do no wrong. That is the first honest thing ever said about Israel. Israel does not have the death penalty. Israel murders people because they are suspected of intending to commit acts of violent resistance in the future. While Israel calls them targeted killings and claims to have knowledge of their intentions, not once has it released any of the evidence. All evidence against all of them must be released else the charge is murder. Israel is a Jewish nation. By Israel’s own estimate, barely two thirds of its citizens had Jewish ancestors and well under one half are Jewish by religion. The US and all Western European nations are more Christian than Israel is Jewish by any measure. It is not clear what is meant by a “Jewish nation” save as an excuse for discriminatory laws against Gentiles. Israel is an outpost of enlightened Western values in the Middle East. Western nations have not declared themselves to be Christian nations as Israel has declared itself a Jewish nation. Such bigotry is contrary to Western values. Oh, this should be entertaining… Comment by hANOVER fIST on 6/18/08 at 10:17 pm “...At the very least I would think you would contend with that vile creep,” Listen chuckles. I got rid of the last putz, and I don’t seem to remember you lending a hand. No this ones all yours. I’ll go take a nap. Besides, I think he likes you, Rifka Comment by Shoded Yam on 6/18/08 at 11:27 pm Shoded Yam I think you have heard it all; of my responses to your repeated nonsense. All i can say is that you are giving your son no reason at all to marry a Jew, and the law of return in his day will exclude him and his non-Jewish spouse. So you are are basically a dead end. Sayonara, Hasta la Vista baby and so on. Comment by Ben Plonie on 6/19/08 at 12:07 am Hanover fist (what a stupid name, even a Nazi would be embarrassed to have a name like that) Have you ever heard that cutting and pasting entire articles of propaganda is the last resort of mental incompetents and hypocrites? Do you think “spouting a mouthful of garbage” actually respond s to my specific responses? Didn’t you say you were a SCIENTIST, a researcher? Of course you’re lying, but do you hope to call this article factual, this list of lies and distortions? Nice try. I give you point by point and you give me a cheap little substitution for real thought and fact. Hey, did you know the website you copied this from actually has more antisemitic and holocaust denial articles than there are actually living Jews in the world? It is no surprise to me that your mask has completely slipped. It was only a matter of time. I’m not going to run around the backcourt dealing with thousands lines of propaganda while you lob articles over the transom. This interaction has long ceased being a discussion and exploration of the truth. I don’t even know why the moderator of this blog allows you to do that. Let Brad state “No problem, just paste in thousands and thousands of words and links, hate websites - fine, whatever.” I can bury you with documented facts and argumentation. I’m still waiting for evidence that ‘hanover fist’ is a concerned American passionate about American lives, security, taxpayer funds, patriotic or cultural pride on ANY topic or website that does not contain the word ‘Jew’, ‘Israel’, or ‘Zionism’. Just for context. Here, let’s save a little time. I’ll do this for you. Sputter, splutter, screech, snort, howl. Now you can actually say something, oops, I forgot you have nothing to say on your own substandard intellectual level. For now let’s just say, http://www.eretzyisroel.org/ Comment by Ben Plonie on 6/19/08 at 12:09 am “..All i can say is that you are giving your son no reason at all to marry a Jew, and the law of return in his day will exclude him and his non-Jewish spouse. So you are are basically a dead end. Sayonara, Hasta la Vista baby and so on.” Really rabbi? Guess what? My wife and I are not worried. So far he’s turned out to be a wonderful kid who is soaking up ISRAELI culture(a genuine Jewish culture, rather than the supplicant galut slave culture of the cringing xenophobes of the shtetl). Loves Chavaleh, Poogy, Arik Einstein, etc. Likes me to read the Poopy book in hebrew. Likes Qubeh soup, Speaks simple hebrew himself (Safta and Saba will be happy)We apprecaite your concern, but we are confident in our abilities to raise a good Israeli American. Whether he marries a Jew, will of course be his choice, but I should hope he would marry the woamn he loves, regardless of religous affiliations. In any event, I wouldn’t worry about it too much, Vic. People are sick of the Haredi, the Rabbis, the whole lot. I think the law of return will be adjusted according to economic criteria. Forget about that “ingathering of the exiles” crap. Those days are over. Israel, like most other countries, has more people than jobs. Isarels economic future is going to be tight. Israelis are already becoming much less enamoured with the idea of olim. They’ll be looking for those yids that can actually add something to the economy, either through creativity, enetrepeneurship, or investment in metropolitan Israel(ie.-Haifa, Tel Aviv, Beersheva, etc, etc. Not ariel or Kiryat Arba)Sorry Stand-Up Philosophy and Subversion aren’t gonna cut it. As my son is already an Israeli citizen, from a distinguished Israeli family, I think the threat of exclusion is something your mis-guided daughters should start worrying about. One last thing, vic. Re. “...My Zionism is what Zionism was before it was christened (I crack myself up) Zionism. What you are talking about is Labor Zionism and political Zionism which is not that intellectually powerful and has already failed in significant respects.” Classic Zionism? Oh. You mean the sort of zionism where Tevya and his family have a passover seder in their hovel in Poland(or Fresh Meadows)and at the end of the meal are heard to utter; “Next Year in Jerusalem”. Except they never actually go to Jerusalem. Sound familiar Vic? What you refer to as Religous Zionism is really just Revisionist Zionism(the zionist movement of the 4th Aliyah. The zionism of narrow minded xenophobes and small shop keepers)sprinkled with rabbinical fairey dust in order to legitimize a movement that has no coherent ideology other than the acquistion of power and the indulgences of greed and corruption> Re. Comment by Shoded Yam on 6/19/08 at 1:29 am Shoded...thanks for adding to the fun. Ben...you truly are a schmuck of the highest order. You RANT incessantly about BLOODY PROPHECIES that have NO BASIS in reality...you resort to ad-hominem attacks when presented with irrefutable facts, and to top it off, you’re a cheeky little bugger. Let me guess...the meat-packing company that specialized in making ecstasy didn’t do anything wrong, right? Remember my posit to you: the Black thief and the Asian woman? You never did answer that one. I wonder if it’s because you’ll have to own up to the fact that wrong actions are WRONG, regardless of who performs them. And I can’t BELIEVE that you take so low a tack against someone to say that THEY’RE BARRED FROM ISRAEL BECAUSE THEY DISAGREE WITH YOU?!? You must carry your sack in a wheelbarrow. Who the bloody hell are you to make such proclamations? I would posit that YOU aren’t welcome in Israel. Putz. Comment by hANOVER fIST on 6/19/08 at 5:40 pm hANOVER fIST, I hate to rain on your parade, but you and chuckles the clown over here are two sides of the same coin. You both like to take facts out of their respective contexts and then draw ideologically motivated conclusions of a spurious and polemical nature and then present them with all conflated arrogance of peer-recognized authorities on the subjects in question. However, re; “… I would posit that YOU aren’t welcome in Israel.” You’re spot on, old bean. You have no idea how right you are. Comment by Shoded Yam on 6/19/08 at 8:19 pm Shoded: Here’s the main difference between Bennie-Boy and I...I won’t slander you with garbage and invective. We can agree to disagree...and I hope that in the future that I can make those points without an air of arrogance filtering in. One of the biggest errors made is the “lecturing tone”. No one wants to be lectured to...even if the lecture is dead on. Enjoy the day. Comment by hANOVER fIST on 6/19/08 at 8:39 pm “...Here’s the main difference between Bennie-Boy and I...I won’t slander you with garbage and invective.” Well, that will certainly be a welcome change for both of us and thank you. “...One of the biggest errors made is the “lecturing tone”. No one wants to be lectured to...even if the lecture is dead on” I agree. Well, fair enough. Maybe I’ll come over to your blog and we’ll discuss. Enjoy your day as well. One of the biggest errors made is the “lecturing tone”. No one wants to be lectured to...even if the lecture is dead on Comment by Shoded Yam on 6/19/08 at 9:20 pm It is so cute that you two guys get along so well together. The truth is you resemble each other to a large degree. Last things first, to hanover fist: I actually had to double check as to whether I “RANT incessantly about BLOODY PROPHECIES that have NO BASIS in reality”. Using the search function in IE, I used the word ‘prophesies’ exactly once, and the basis in reality is obvious. But you are one who introduced the topic, and rants incessantly about it. Like all of your co-religionists of the atheist belief system, you have a hot-button hang-up on the subject. That is why I was careful to establish that prophesy was unnessesary to sustain the Jewish claim to the Holy Land, historical reality, priority and continuity does that5 as well which I am happy to prove to you. Jews have never relinquished their claim to Israel/palestine/Holy Land or whatever you may call it, and have had a continuous presence there under opression of all kinds for millennia. The land was never completely empty of Jews. This is a historical and legal argument. The article you posted was a complete fabrication and sophistry. As far as the “the Black thief and the Asian woman” is concerned, I didn’t respond because I don’t know what the hell you are talking about. It makes no sense at all. Jews in Israel are in their eternal homeland and posession and inheritance, anyone else is the Jewish eternal homeland and posession and inheritance. That’s all there is to it. It may be a unique situation but so be it. Israel/Palestine/Holy Land is a global reservation for the Jewish nation. It is not subject to redefinition by any political or diplomatic mechanism, just like your own bedroom is not. But mainly, JUST AS I HAVE SEEN A MILLION TIMES, YOU HAVE NO RATIONAL OR CREDIBLE REJOINDER TO EVEN ONE OF THE POINTS I HAVE PRESENTED TO YOU. I AM TYPING IN CAPTALS JUST TO MAKE YOU FEEL AT HOME. Next, to Shoded Yam Don’t get me wrong. I wish your son the best life possible, particularly in view of having to contend with your problematic personality. I am glad to note that you did not take what I said in the wrong way. The odds are still even that he will remain joined to the Jewish nation in the most basic way (and getting better by twenty years from now), but you have clearly confirmed that it is not a priority for you. “Whether he marries a Jew, will of course be his choice, but I should hope he would marry the woamn he loves, regardless of religous affiliations.” Very sad for me now, and him later, like the cockeyed Russian neonazis in Israel nobody wants to associate with or marry. He might independantly consider the advantages of keeping his next generation in the game by ensuring that they are native-born Jewish citizens (regardless of secular national affiliations such as ‘Israeli’). Because the Jewish nation is eternal and the Israeli one - not necessarily, considering that people like you are ignorantly and naively undermining the meritorious basis for the eternity of the Jewish state. I hope you and the antisemite will be happy together. Comment by Ben Plonie on 6/20/08 at 1:36 am I don’t see an anti-semite here. What I see is an intelligent individual who has been misinformed. Unfortunately for Israel, his misinformation is confirmed and validated by an American Jewish propaganda machine hell bent on depicting the State of Israel as one settler-loving, palestinian hating, monolith. The reasons for this are understandable. A peaceful Israel, an Israel that is at peace with its neighbors, an Israel that has reconciled itself to the reality of a two-state solution, an Isarel that is committed to social justice for all of its citizens, an Israel not ripped apart by social disorder is simply not in the interests of American Jews, either on the right or the left. Without an Isarel on a perpetual war-footing, without an Israel being a supplicant client state, without an Isarel who’s interests are subordinated to those of the United States, without the perception that it is necessary for American Jews to intercede with the American gov’t on Israels behalf, American Jews become a political non-entity(much as they were prior to 67’)with the all the attendant loss of power and influence that would entail. Re. the rest of this self-serving nonsense. Since your “compassion” is based on half-baked, halachicaly rationalized theories, steeped in the pseudo-science of eugenics, you and your crocadile tears are about as genuine as a three dollar bill. Comment by Shoded Yam on 6/20/08 at 11:15 am I’m not surprised you see an intelligent individual in hanover fist. First of all, you agree with him on the essential cultural guilt and inadequacy of the Jewish people on a deep level. If he is a liberal, then Jews engaged in neutral activities such as athletes and entertainers are OK, just not Jews who are firm in their spiritual basis or national basis. As long as you try to make yourself acceptable to people like him you could even be his woman, just don’t expect the reverse. Even liberal antisemites aren’t THAT tolerant. His style is near identical to yours. Make unfounded offensive accusations and slurs, ignore the replies and change the subject, quote some nut blogging in their underwear, insult. Put words in your opponents mouth and bicker with the straw man. Compassion, eugenics, victimhood, all asked and answered, dealt with by me numerous times. Never deal with facts or logic in either direction. If you are conscious of what you do, it indicates mendacity and hypocrisy. If unbconscious, it indicates a personality disorder. You may have been in the IDF, but you certainly learned nothing there. Listen to your forebears on this. There are cultural primitives who want you and me dead, and there is nothing short of that that will satisfy them. There is nothing that Israel can do short of dissolving your state and formally accepting dhimmi status under a Muslim rule that can spare you. Study and learn. The only time Israel has ever advanced its cause and gained any security was by dealing from strength and principle and truth. The only answer to unreconstructed enemies is ‘surrender or die’, not ‘let’s talk about it’. That is the reality. The two-state solution was Trans-Jordan and Western Palestine - didn’t work. The two-state solution was Syria and Lebanon - didn’t work. The only viable two-state solution is to establish the state of Judea on the so-called West Bank and Gaza. Comment by Ben Plonie on 6/20/08 at 8:07 pm “...Compassion, eugenics, victimhood, all asked and answered, dealt with by me numerous times.” You mean you attempted to deal with it, but you’re a lunatic, so of course your responses reflected that, and as a result,carry no weight and were therefore irrelevant and given the short shrift they deserved. I’m sorry but jailhouse scholarship doesn’t impress me. Have you enquired as to whether or not Ossning offers a graduate program?:-) Re. putting words in your mouth. I don’t think thats possible given the fact that your foot has taken up permanent residence there . With you Vic, there’s never a need for strawmen. Why go out for milk, when I got a cow at home?;-) Comment by Shoded Yam on 6/20/08 at 8:36 pm As usual, no semantic content. You strongly remind me of the recurring guest on Howard Stern named ‘Beetlejuice’. He is a microcephalic dwarf with the ability to endlessly run off at the mouth when he is kickstarted with a phrase or question. Nothing he says is true or makes sense, but that’s what makes his ability so fascinating. You keep waiting for him to run out of things to say, considering he is not really saying anything. I will be happy to humiliate you by actually discussing any issue you choose in a rational way. Please quote me accurately with a link regarding let’s say, eugenics just to establish a little street cred for you. Please also quote your own views on eugenics, including your own definition of it. I can demonstrate how wrong and stupid you are without that, but it will save me a little time. Comment by Ben Plonie on 6/21/08 at 11:53 pm “..I will be happy to humiliate you by actually discussing any issue you choose in a rational way. Please quote me accurately with a link regarding let’s say, eugenics just to establish a little street cred for you. Please also quote your own views on eugenics, including your own definition of it. I can demonstrate how wrong and stupid you are without that, but it will save me a little time” I want you to know, that I have actually enjoyed our little exchanges. To be specific, I have enjoyed pushing all of your little buttons, and then watching you post you’re temper tantrums, exposing all your little insecurities. Insecurities, so acute, so deep seated, as to occasion an obsessive need to not only promote a grey matter, stunted, limited, and twisted by incarceration, but to actually attempt to buttress the assumption that such an education is somehow superior to the more traditional methods of higher learning,(you know, (BA’s, BS’s, MBA’s, PhD’s, Colleges, Universties, The Rocko School of Typewriter Repair, )by means of schoolyard(or should I say prison yard)taunting, and tedious, self-congratulatory approbations. This in of itself is indicative of an emotional development arrested at the age of 11, but thats a problem for your therapist to deal with. Boy, what I wouldn’t give to be a fly on the wall in that office, . Much like that idiot LanceThruster, you’re obsessive complusive, and I’ve counted on that In as much as you’d like to promote the concept that you’re some sort of rational, professor emeritus, in the end you shoot yourself in the foot everytime with such remarks like “..Rabin deserved to die” and kahanist flights of fancy such as; “...The only viable two-state solution is to establish the state of Judea on the so-called West Bank and Gaza.”, (of course with the necessary expulsion/and or genocide that would entail, in the event that the current residents don’t see things you’re way.) But thats okay, as long as Israeli’s are willing to swim in blood in order for people like you to feel the sensation of manhood, than its all worth it, eh Victor? I think my work is done here for the time being. Now don’t start weeping. I’ll come back now and then to keep you on your toes Comment by Shoded Yam on 6/22/08 at 1:37 pm I had to wade through all that without a single presentation of a rational proposal otr thought? Que lastima. Oh, well, I’ll make the first move. I don’t recall saying “rabin deserved to die’ so let’s not spread lashon hara. If you can actually find me saying that, kindly include the context. As far as the State of Judea and ultimately all of the Greater United States of Israel is concerned (you’re a big State-ist, you should enjoy this), it would follow the rules I propose for a reservation for the Israelite/Jewish nation; that is: 1) Full citizenship, property and inheritance rights for members of the Jewish nation in good standing, in the time-tested classical sense; 2) Extension of state protection for human rights for a limited number of temporary resident aliens in good standing, i.e. people who do not meet the above criteria who nevertheless have a positive and productive purpose in residing the ancient original aboriginal sacred Jewish eternal inheritance, and who agree to recognize the exclusive Jewish character of the State and respect and abide by its laws and community standards. I don’t expect you to actually be capable of a response, I just want to publically demonstrate that fact. Comment by Ben Plonie on 6/22/08 at 3:15 pm Oh, Ben..."I’m not surprised you see an intelligent individual in hanover fist. First of all, you agree with him on the essential cultural guilt and inadequacy of the Jewish people on a deep level. If he is a liberal, then Jews engaged in neutral activities such as athletes and entertainers are OK, just not Jews who are firm in their spiritual basis or national basis. As long as you try to make yourself acceptable to people like him you could even be his woman, just don’t expect the reverse. Even liberal antisemites aren’t THAT tolerant.” You see...you TRULY must be a mental patient, as Shoded noted. Why would I say such a thing? Ben...you COMPLETELY DISREGARD pertinent points, and instead, attempt to shore up your failed thesis. You won’t answer the question of the Black thief and the Asian woman? Let me prove how morally bankrupt you are. The Black thief is ABSOLUTELY WRONG to attempt to appropriate the Asian woman’s property. He has NO RIGHT to it. Period. If you weren’t blinded by your “MINE! MINE! MINE!” attitude to the land of Israel/Palestine, you’d see it with rational eyes...but you CAN’T. Now, as I stated earlier...I don’t care about your religious beliefs - they’re YOURS, for Pete’s sake! All I ask is that you return the same kindness...but apparently, I have been relegated to being one of those “cultural primitives”, to whom offering niceties would be like wasting platitudes on a shark. By the way...that is an interesting thought, there...if there were “cultural elite” who were calling for the settlers in Israel to return to the borders established before 1967, would you not have any argument? “Jews in Israel are in their eternal homeland and posession and inheritance, anyone else is the Jewish eternal homeland and posession and inheritance. That’s all there is to it. It may be a unique situation but so be it. Israel/Palestine/Holy Land is a global reservation for the Jewish nation. It is not subject to redefinition by any political or diplomatic mechanism, just like your own bedroom is not.” Whew...that’s a mouthful...and not a clearly-formed one at that. Unique situation, eh? I’m sure that the Irish might have something to say about that… Why can’t you just admit that what you posit as the basis for your claim to Israel requires further clarification? But I wish to actually thank you - “Before I forget, it will not be necessary for you to come to New York. I was in Kossar’s yesterday, and they ship to California and Florida (anywhere actually) by FedEX. They’re that good. http://www.kossarsbialys.com/order_frame_page.htm I haven’t had a decent bialy in ages. Comment by hANOVER fIST on 6/22/08 at 5:49 pm “The Black thief is ABSOLUTELY WRONG to attempt to appropriate the Asian woman’s property. He has NO RIGHT to it.” OK, as far as that goes, if we overlook the racism you reveal in your model. I assume you find the Asian woman whiter or more sympathetic then the Black thief. If I had to psychoanalyze you I would submit that you would find any woman whiter than any man, if you get my drift. But let’s proceed. You are calling Jews in Israel black thieves, and Arabs in ‘Palestine’ an Asian woman. Let’s see if it remains a ‘pertinent point’ when Arabs are the Black thieves and Jews Asian women with the purses. I thought not. Why not just skip the games and agree that it is not necessary to justify thievery of any kind, and discuss the question of ownership, property rights and claims. And while we are here, let’s have you explain your personal interest in the dispute, if you are not a Jew, an Arab, a Muslim or a standard-issue anti-Semite? It would be difficult to make the case that you are simply a champion of justice and so on with your increasingly hysterical use of the dozen or so classic antisemitic staples about Jews, Israel and Zionism; and your presumptions about calling Arabs ‘indigenous’ to Israel, that the establishment of Israel is analogous to invading the domicile of the Arabs, that Israel dominates a subservient USA and it is anti-American to support the Israel position etc. Then to throw in the USS Liberty and Dimona. These are dead givaways. You are saying that Jews have NO RIGHT to the property of others. Not in dispute. I am saying that Arabs have NO RIGHT to the property of Jews. You have a problem with that? Getting back to ownership, property rights and claims, it can be shown that the Jews had all of that for two thousand years before the (illegal) Islamic conquest, and never relinquished them by any orderly or legal process. It can also be shown that the Arabs particularly never had anything approaching that. It can be shown most specifically that the Arabs who now claim ownership in palestine/Israel had no roots or ownership in the land at all. Some very few had residence in the land, but those are not the ones we are talking about. There had been a continuous Jewish residence in the land since the destruction of the Temple, in as great a size as conditions allowed. Nearly all Arabs called ‘palestinian’ arrived after the latest Zionist reclamation projects, using no arms or coercion but money, blood sweat and tears. Hevaing dealt with your purse-thief, why don’t you deal with my explantion of the Jewish reservation in the Holy land? When the Balfour Declaration was formulated, Palestine meant nothing but the Jewish homeland, despite the sophistry put out after the fact. Comment by Ben Plonie on 6/23/08 at 1:26 am

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